Frankly speaking, I hardly read forwards that I do not care about. But this one caught my attention and for once I read it over. And again and again...(if you guys havent....and care to read further...quickly glance through the previous mails)
With all due respect to all his educational qualifications, I would care less for Mr.Ravishankar's views. (Yeah yeah! who cares what I care... )
But one thing's for sure...good 'education', I thought, brings about a sense of maturity and understanding. Going through Ravishankar's views about why reservation is justified, I feel nauseated. All that education at IIT and CMU down the drain?! Tsk tsk tsk!
Who in hell wants all castes to be 'represented' percentage wise? You score...you are in. You dont...you are out! No problem. Thats not the end of the world. There are plenty of career paths to choose from. How much simpler can it all get? Where do percentages come into the picture. Do I blame my forefathers for not procreating enough to justify a higher percentile representation?
"Reverse discrimination". hehehehehehe! Does someone sit there and come up with such terms? Or is it an officially recognized technical term? Give that a thought...'reverse discrimination'. Gosh! I cannot help smiling.
Missed your opportunity to get to the stage where you can appear for the entrance exams?..Yes! THAT I understand. Not everyone has the sources to send their kids for a decent high school education. (Ravishankar kind of ducks this bouncer, doesnt he?) This is where our (pathetic) government should step in. Get the parents to send the kids to school. How? I dont know! Thats not my job. You guys figure it out. Is it really that difficult? Thoda dimaag daudao..it ain't that difficult.
I know not how the government is elected. I hear about all those booze parties before and after the elections, especially in the economically deprived areas (where most of India's population is) and that having a bearing on the results. So has the government being elected consciously weighing the pros and cons of how and what it is going to do for the economically and 'caste'-backward communities? Or on the percentage of alcohol? ChandraBabu Naidu was doing pretty good, wasnt he? And the dimwits voted him out! Gosh! How pathetic can that get?!
This friend of mine...all he did the whole of high school was dick around. Gives his entrance exam, screws it up...we get together for a round of drinks and this fuckface says, "koi nahi...form bhar dunga...koi sc/st ka form hai...mil jayega seat". So, if this pinhead would have scored good enough, he wouldnt have filled up the form? So he eats up from the 'FC quota'. Right? Yeh kahan ki insaafi hai Ravishankar saheb?!
Why even have entrance exams when you know that though the exams are a good judge, the results are already skewed!
And then, to add to the BS...there comes this 'scheme'...wherein all requisite text books are paid for! I know so many pals who get the Rs.100 from their parents who are pretty well-to-do back home, AND Rs.100 from the government for the same text book. These 'mathematics' somehow does not add up. Does it? And where does the money for those text books come from? Taxes. Who pays the most taxes? hehehehehe!!!!! kuch chamka? btw...our man never bought the book at all! He borrowed it a couple of days before the second attempt! "rroobbeerrttt...yeh hai ssmmaarrtt booyy"
Who knows, in due course of time...the "FCs" will themselves have to be allocated a 'FC quota', after being 'deprived of opportunities'.
I dont know who all will even care to read the replies on this subject. (But if you are reading this, GOSH! I caught your attention!)
And I am NOT sorry if I sounded rude or out-of-context. I do NOT want to start a discussion or a mud-slinging fest around here. But for Almighty's sakes, have some respect for those guys back home who CARE and doing their part in rallying and having their bones smashed.
I might have a biased and one-sided opinion. Of course! I have every right to! I saw my seat taken away. And I did not score less than the what-did-he-say....haan! "reserved-category cut-off marks"(I had to copy-paste that term). Did not want to go to some God-forsaken place for my degree. btw...does "reserved-category cut-off marks" qualify as an oxymoron? Give it a thought.
Maybe my answer to the question "How much social cost are we willing to bear to make the market truly open so that ALL talent will flourish?" would be "Zilch".
Try as much as I want to, I really aint able to understand the connection of 'matimonial columns in popular newspapers' to 'reservation rocks!'
Wow! Dekhte dekhte...looks like this is a pretty long email. Better stop ...
Amit Gurjar
With all due respect to all his educational qualifications, I would care less for Mr.Ravishankar's views. (Yeah yeah! who cares what I care... )
But one thing's for sure...good 'education', I thought, brings about a sense of maturity and understanding. Going through Ravishankar's views about why reservation is justified, I feel nauseated. All that education at IIT and CMU down the drain?! Tsk tsk tsk!
Who in hell wants all castes to be 'represented' percentage wise? You score...you are in. You dont...you are out! No problem. Thats not the end of the world. There are plenty of career paths to choose from. How much simpler can it all get? Where do percentages come into the picture. Do I blame my forefathers for not procreating enough to justify a higher percentile representation?
"Reverse discrimination". hehehehehehe! Does someone sit there and come up with such terms? Or is it an officially recognized technical term? Give that a thought...'reverse discrimination'. Gosh! I cannot help smiling.
Missed your opportunity to get to the stage where you can appear for the entrance exams?..Yes! THAT I understand. Not everyone has the sources to send their kids for a decent high school education. (Ravishankar kind of ducks this bouncer, doesnt he?) This is where our (pathetic) government should step in. Get the parents to send the kids to school. How? I dont know! Thats not my job. You guys figure it out. Is it really that difficult? Thoda dimaag daudao..it ain't that difficult.
I know not how the government is elected. I hear about all those booze parties before and after the elections, especially in the economically deprived areas (where most of India's population is) and that having a bearing on the results. So has the government being elected consciously weighing the pros and cons of how and what it is going to do for the economically and 'caste'-backward communities? Or on the percentage of alcohol? ChandraBabu Naidu was doing pretty good, wasnt he? And the dimwits voted him out! Gosh! How pathetic can that get?!
This friend of mine...all he did the whole of high school was dick around. Gives his entrance exam, screws it up...we get together for a round of drinks and this fuckface says, "koi nahi...form bhar dunga...koi sc/st ka form hai...mil jayega seat". So, if this pinhead would have scored good enough, he wouldnt have filled up the form? So he eats up from the 'FC quota'. Right? Yeh kahan ki insaafi hai Ravishankar saheb?!
Why even have entrance exams when you know that though the exams are a good judge, the results are already skewed!
And then, to add to the BS...there comes this 'scheme'...wherein all requisite text books are paid for! I know so many pals who get the Rs.100 from their parents who are pretty well-to-do back home, AND Rs.100 from the government for the same text book. These 'mathematics' somehow does not add up. Does it? And where does the money for those text books come from? Taxes. Who pays the most taxes? hehehehehe!!!!! kuch chamka? btw...our man never bought the book at all! He borrowed it a couple of days before the second attempt! "rroobbeerrttt...yeh hai ssmmaarrtt booyy"
Who knows, in due course of time...the "FCs" will themselves have to be allocated a 'FC quota', after being 'deprived of opportunities'.
I dont know who all will even care to read the replies on this subject. (But if you are reading this, GOSH! I caught your attention!)
And I am NOT sorry if I sounded rude or out-of-context. I do NOT want to start a discussion or a mud-slinging fest around here. But for Almighty's sakes, have some respect for those guys back home who CARE and doing their part in rallying and having their bones smashed.
I might have a biased and one-sided opinion. Of course! I have every right to! I saw my seat taken away. And I did not score less than the what-did-he-say....haan! "reserved-category cut-off marks"(I had to copy-paste that term). Did not want to go to some God-forsaken place for my degree. btw...does "reserved-category cut-off marks" qualify as an oxymoron? Give it a thought.
Maybe my answer to the question "How much social cost are we willing to bear to make the market truly open so that ALL talent will flourish?" would be "Zilch".
Try as much as I want to, I really aint able to understand the connection of 'matimonial columns in popular newspapers' to 'reservation rocks!'
Wow! Dekhte dekhte...looks like this is a pretty long email. Better stop ...
Amit Gurjar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And this is as a reply to what Ravishankar had to say...
A little bit of background about Ravishankar - he is a 1997 BTech from IITM. He finished a Ph.D in CMU, worked at Motorola for a few years, went back and was a professor in IITM. He then decided to work full time for AID (Association of India's development) and is one of AID Jeevan Saathis (AID Fellows).
Mathematics of Reservations- Ravishankar Arunachalam
Imagine that the government came up with a proposal to build a new world-class technology institution to provide quality education to all students. Imagine, too, that a debate rages on the viability ofbuilding such an institution - in terms of the costs involved, student quality, desired outcomes etc. Now, imagine that such a debate takesplace with little reference to IITs or the role they have played in technical education. Outrageous, you would think ? Yet, something similar is happening in the reservation debate, both within and outside AID. he record of states which have implemented OBC reservations already is seldom brought up.
The case of TamilnaduStates like Tamilndu, Kerala, Karnataka and AndhraPradesh have already implemented reservation for OBCsin educational institutions. I will restrict myreferences to Tamilnadu alone, since I do not knowabout the situation in other states. In Tamilnadu, the total reservation is 69%, the split up for which is given below (refwww.tn.gov.in/policynotes/bc_mbc_welfare.htm)for convenience
Category Population (lakhs) % of Total %Resered
Backward Classes 287 46.2% 30%
Most Backward Classes 129 20.7% 20%
Scheduled Classes 118 19% 18%
Scheduled Tribes 7 1.1% 1%
Others 80 13%
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total 621 100% 69%
BCs and MBCs of Tamilnadu are together equivalent tothe "OtherBackward Castes", as they are referred to inthe rest of the country.The most obvious observationfrom the table above is that the percentage of reservations is only equal to or lower thanthepercentage of the group in the overall population.So the reservation system is only trying to bring aboutproportional representation in educationalinstitutions. It does not result in a reverse-discrimination (which would mean BCs get morethan their proportional share in order to righthistorical wrongs), as many peopleclaim. FCs, who formthe "others", still get the bulk of the 31% open-quota seats even though their population percentage is only13%.
Overall, the experience with reservation has been verypositive,and that is why there is wide-spread supportfor it in the state. The government health-care system in Tamilnadu is better than most other states, and onereason has been the quality doctors that thesystem produces, a factor attributed to reservations. Many of them also opt toserve in rural areas. Notsurprisingly, the TN chapter of the Indian Medical Association supports quotas for the OBCs.
Now it is not difficult to see why theanti-reservation polemic does not refer to states likeTamilnadu with an OBC reservation record.It is becausethere are no instances of bridges cracking due to faulty design and patients dying due to incompetentdoctors. These are often cited as the potential dangersdue to reservations, either directly ormore subtly as"quality will deteriorate". I am not saying that thereare no problems with govt doctors or hospitals inTN, but these problems are present in other states too,and the overall quality is still better in Tamilnadu.Who gets in and who does'nt ?
Of course, forward castes aren't happy with the situation, in spite of having a larger representationthan their proportion in the population. The problem isthat the total number of seats available is so low thatmost people are left out. But this is true of every single category, and not just FCs. Many of us,belonging to the forward castes, have a lot of friendswho are "left out", and feel outraged that its due toreservations ( though many FC candidates score lowerthan even the reserved-category cut-off marks,and still blamereservations!). But the question to askis: What about the lakhs of people from the MBCs andBCs who get left out ? There are thousands of farmers' daughters and weavers' sons who either are unable toget to high school, or even if they do, do not getadequate support from homeand are unable to affordcoaching classes. We seldom know them and donotencounter them in our day-to-day lives. Yet they are real students,who are not only unable to get intothese seats, but do not even getthe opportunity tocompete on an even footing. Are we pre-supposingthatthese students are all devoid of merit? According tothe math above, for every FC friend of ours, there areatleast 5 BC/MBC students who were denied theopportunity to get a seat. Who speaks for them ?
Economic criterion
Such examples immediately bring up the point that reservations have'nt resulted in what they intended todo. Again, experience in Tamilnadu points otherwise.There are any number of good students frombackwardcastes who get into Anna university every year due toreservations, and excel in their careers.In addition, there is already a provision forexcluding the creamy layer of each caste fromreservation (the list of conditions thatexclude aperson from enjoying OBC reservation benefits, is at http://ncbc.nic.in/html/creamylayer.html)so that onlythe needy get the benefits.
What about purely economic criteria, leaving out caste? While that might work in an ideal caste-less society,we have to acknowledge that caste is still a hugefactor governing societal relationships today.Thosewho think that "caste is not a factor in urban India anymore",need only look at the matrimonial columns ofany popular newspaper.
The supreme court has also ruled that reservationsbased on purely economic conditions isunconstitutional. Besides, economic conditions can easily change over time, whereas caste does not offerany mobility.That is why, inspite of reservations, ittakes a lot of time for real empowerment of the lowercastes. And just because a caste is"considered" low, it wont become an OBC. It has to satisfyseveral conditions to be included associo-economically" backward , for example that theproportion of graduates is 20% lower than the state orlocalaverage (complete list of guidelines at http://ncbcnic.in/html/guideline.html).The outrageousfact is that there still are clearly identifiablecastes and sub-castes which fall in such categories, exposing the deep-rootednature of our caste system.
Conclusion:As AIDers, we have a conscious responsibility to notonly appreciate the problems of those from our castesand backgrounds, but also the millons of Indians who are generally unable to take part at all levels in thegovernment education/adiminstration system. Let usgo beyond our individual class/caste biases and take aposition on theissue
.jpg)